Should governments or employers mandate swine flu -- or any -- vaccination?

 Going to be hard to come up with 300 words on this one...how many ways can you say NO?

That's a very good question. It depends on the degree of risk for not doing so. If this is about whether it's even OK to mandate vaccinations, then yes, Government has power to mandate such, if it is necessary in order to protect its citizens from epidemics.

Whether swine flu is one of those epidemics or not is what I don't know. My guess is that it might be necessary to require innoculation of certain people, like front-line health care workers, but not all.

Luanne Traud:

Should governments or employers mandate swine flu -- or any -- vaccination?

Normal 0 0 1 282 1241 17 3 1974 11.1282 0 0 0 This is a hard question to respond to because few people, especially Americans, want to be mandated to do anything. However, it seems to me there are times when a mandate is appropriate. I'll illustrate with a story.

Our daughters walked to school, including our youngest, Rebecca, who was in kindergarten. We lived in northern Indiana where it gets mighty cold, and in early December her teacher called and asked if Rebecca needed a coat. We told her we had bought her a coat a few weeks before school started.

The teacher said Rebecca was coming to school every day without a coat and was shivering cold. Come to find out, Rebecca left the house each morning with her coat on, but half way to school she doffed it and stashed it in a bush where she picked it up and donned it before returning home. She said she didn't like wearing a coat and was not going to. She was five and obstinate. We tried to reason with her, telling her she could be injured from not wearing a coat in very cold weather. She would have none of it. So, we forced her wear the coat so she wouldn't get sick and infect others, including her sisters and us.

Likewise, in order to keep swine flu from spreading, which the CDC says could be epidemic; people need to be vaccinated, unless they are unable to because of some chronic medical reason. If they refuse the vaccination and get sick, they may help the epidemic spread. People tend to be obstinate and, in this case especially, it is a selfish obstinacy that endangers others. If they do not acquiesce, then "daddy and mommy" government or employer may have to mandate for the good of the whole.

 

Marvin Foster:

Going to be hard to come up with 300 words on this one...how many ways can you say NO?

 

Marvin,

Maybe you could write "no" in different languages!!

I haven't fully thought about this yet, but I highly suspect we will be disagreeing on this. When we think of all the diseases like small pox, polio, tetanus...that immunizations have protected us from in our lifetime, it may be easy to take success for granted. I think most people went by the book and complied with recommendations for shots for their children in past years. In recent decades, we've heard more questioning and some lack of compliance (e.g., DPT). Distrust of public health officials and policies has grown as has mistrust of government in general. I trust that public health officials have our best interests at heart and base policy on scientific knowledge and facts. I would value my son's opinion since he has a master's degree in public health microbiology and emerging infectious disease. The bottom line, if my doctor suggests the H1N1 shot, I will get it. I trust him and know that he would base his suggestion on sound medical knowledge.

Deb

Deb Landgraf:

When we think of all the diseases like small pox, polio, tetanus...that immunizations have protected us from in our lifetime, it may be easy to take success for granted

 

 

Deb,

I thought about all the childhood immunizations and agree that they should be continued based on the good track record of preventing the diseases, and perhaps more importantly, not causing adverse side effects.  However I don't think flu vaccines fall into the same category.  First, there are too many types of flue, including the specific swine flu, and no vaccine protects against all of them.  Second, there are too many reported side effects and also the potential for unknown/undiscovered side effects on a very new vaccine.  Remember President Ford rolling up his shirt sleeve to get his flu shot...then remember the side effects that the vaccine was found to cause.  We don't need a repeat of that.

I think the last flu shot I had was in the Army and I was discharged in 1963.  I'm almost afraid to say it, but I don't think I have had the flu since then.  I'll continue to take my chances without it.  I'm not opposed to anyone getting it of their own free will, but I am opposed to it being forced on anyone.

Here are a few of many things to consider before cheering "BIG PHARMA" for saving us from soup and bed rest, with what will be a never ending parade of various flu shots, to go with the yearly flu shot many already pay for. I'm tied up this weekend, not in the good way, and hope to make a few points for the paranoid camp.

Follow the money...

 During the 1976 US swine flu panic, deaths due to adverse vaccine reactions, and verified cases of the rare Guillain-Barre syndrome due to contaminated vaccine, stopped what was a national vaccination program, for what turned out to be a non-existent pandemic. This was well documented, and many of the afflicted were at least compensated monetarily via lawsuit, and rightfully so.

 The difference between the current H1N1(originally named "swine flu") panic, and the 1976 swine flu panic, should not be overlooked. The federal government for whatever reason has removed any liability concerns for "Big Pharma." The many companies who had previously dropped out of the vaccine business due to the bottom line damaging potential and being afraid of paying out huge money if they killed people with a tainted product, are now back in business, and flourishing as never before. The Bush Administration Health and Human Services Secretary Michael Leavitt announced the ruling which was contrary to established precedent. The new FDA rules trump any state laws that allowed citizens to sue drug makers for producing unsafe drugs. Now the FDA, an agency under HHS, has national responsibility for certification of drug safety, rendering State lawsuits worthless.

 The US government recently made available one billion dollars to help vaccine producers such as Sanofi-Aventis and GlaxoSmithKline produce new vaccines. Novartis leads the way with $289 million in federal support, followed by Sanofi Aventis with $191 million and GlaxoSmithKline, which gets $181 million. The US Health and Human Services Department (HHS) is placing orders with manufacturers, which it already has contracts with to produce a pandemic vaccine for the never-pandemic H5N1 avian flu. More than $3 billion in federal funds since 2005 have gone toward developing a vaccine for the bird flu which may or may not return, building manufacturing, and stockpiling a vaccine to fight the avian flu. Shelf life is limited, and suspect. Many people will pass on in the coming weeks and months, regardless of the current H1N1. At least keep an open mind when hearing or reading statistics of both vaccination reactions, or attributed death/illness cases reported.

 What a gig eh? The government originally finances the vaccine companies. The companies then crank out the "flu of the day" vaccine to the tune of 200,000,000 doses for the current flu scare, which were created with guesswork and conjecture as to what may work. The best guessed vaccine, and the result of the virus mutations, must match to be effective. Do you really think they will flush 200,000,000 doses of vaccine if it misses its intended target, or has side effects? THEY COULD CARE LESS, as they will not be found liable since the FDA has approved their making it. Half the population could drop like flies, and big pharm can say "oops," and go on to the next "flu of the day," which is coming, and it looks bad ladies and gentlemen...better roll up the sleeve again, just to be safe. I look forward to continuing this debate. Gip

PS...mandate? You must catch me first. I had to in boot camp. We did everything but moo. Never again.

 

This will be a tough one -

Gib mentioned the 1976 swine flu scare. I remember it well. I was in grad school at Purdue at the time. (I still remember a government doctor interviewed on a news program: "You probably won't get it unless you go around kissing pigs.") That year I came down with the flu, but I don't believe it was the swine flu - it started with a headache, and within an hour I couldn't move. I was a TA at the time and missed several of my own classes and the ones I taught. Since that year, I have gotten a flu shot every year, and never again had the flu. (My doctor says the effects are cummulative.) No one had to mandate it. As a teacher, I guess I should have had a sense of civic responsibility and felt obligated to get the shot, but my motives were selfish. I didn't want to get sick. My own kids had to have immunizations before they could attend school. Some preschools are seeing the effect of kids not getting the immunizations, visiting other countries, getting measles, then infecting (or exposing others) who aren't old enough to get the shots. However, my son is autistic, and I am in the category of parents who absolutely know the change in behavior came AFTER the MMR shots. My girls had the same shots, and they are healthy college grads. My eldest works in the DC area and assures me the swine flu problem is real and potentially deadly. My college has not even received the "regular" flu shot, so I'll likely get it elsewhere. It has instituted a major information campaign, including handwashes in virtually every classroom, and most of us have contingency plans to continue classes online, if necessary. We're all hearing anecdotal stories about cases in schools. In a school, the flu can spread very rapidly. I still worry about shared computer labs. (In some of my classes, we use them for inclass assignments and exams.) I hope my students and my colleagues will also get the shot(s), but that's up to them.

So, it's a crap shoot, isn't it? We hope we make the best decisions for ourselves, our children, and our associates. But I still believe these shots should be voluntary rather than mandatory. We all have to weight the risks individually. Unfortunately, the cliche about hindsight being 20-20 is likely going to hit us hard this time.

Jan

This is not exactly on topic, but recently I read on ABC news that Robert Melamede  of the company Cannabis Science  is developing a lozenge made from cannabinoids  that helps suppress the immune system. Apparently the immune system on overdrive is partly what kills people who have swine flu and he wants to market his product for that specific reason. I would never suggest that anyone with a lung infection light up a joint but you could just switch from oregano to some other special ingredient for your spaghetti sauce. It might not cure you but you'll have a much more enjoyable time while you're sick. 

 

Absolutely not! This would set a dangerous precedent by using a vaccine that is not thoroughly tested to prevent a potential, but not clearly defined health hazard. Additionally it would be a further intrusion into individual freedom that should not be tolerated.

We have realized much improvement in reducing childhood diseases by mandatory immunization of children. However this has been accomplished using well tested vaccines. The record on flu vaccines is not as clean. First, there are too many strains of flu and no vaccine attacks them all. Second, these vaccines have not had the thorough testing to prove they are effective and also free of undesirable side effects. In fact, quite the opposite. There are known adverse side effects and dangers in the vaccines.

We remember President Ford rolling up his sleeve for a flu vaccine shot to give us all confidence in the safety and desirability of getting the shot. Then we also remember the disastrous side effects of that insufficiently tested vaccine. We do not need a repeat performance.

Rather than pushing a vaccine, let's focus on improving the health habits of people to reduce the occurrence of communicable diseases. Let's spend the promotion dollars teaching people to wash their hands more frequently, cover their faces when sneezing and stay at home when they are sick. In addition, let's stop our social custom of shaking hands, especially during flu season.

Marvin..."Rather than pushing a vaccine, let's focus on improving the health habits of people to reduce the occurrence of communicable diseases. Let's spend the promotion dollars teaching people to wash their hands more frequently, cover their faces when sneezing and stay at home when they are sick. In addition, let's stop our social custom of shaking hands, especially during flu season."

Hey Marvin. Very sound advice. Add staying in shape and eating right, and let the chips fall where they may. I may have hinted in my previous post that I suspect an old school "big money few" drive the bus for Big Pharma/Oil/Banking/Insurance/Big Media/Our Government. I found this article in a London paper from 2005 I believe it was. If it walks and quacks, it may well be a duck. Gip

 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-rumsfeld-makes-5m-killing-on-bird-flu-drug-469599.html

Luanne Traud:

Should governments or employers mandate swine flu -- or any -- vaccination?

I'm inclined to say yes, but a qualified yes.  My friend Marvin says it would set a dangerous precedent, but there are many precedents for this.  Let's take a close look at the wording of Luanne's question.  It's very broad, including "governments [plural] or employers" and the all-inclusive word "any."  A flat "no" means that no government or employer should require citizens or employees to have any vaccinations.  George Washington required the Continental Army to get vaccinated for small pox.  Many people back in the 18th century thought that was crazy, but he believed it would do little if any harm and save countless lives.  He was right then, and today the government should require enlisted men and women to have vaccinations.

Many hospitals require employees who treat patients to have various vaccinations such as Hepatitis B.  Everyone should get a tetantas vaccination every few years.  Most children get vaccinated for diptheria and measles.  I think perhaps my generation was the last to have mandatory vaccination for small pox, and now it is pretty much extinct.  Generally, there is no rational reason to fear the safety of vaccinations (or to think it's just about money for drug companies).  That kind of thinking reminds me of paranoid people who don't want flouride in their municiple water supply.  Yes, it's true that in rare occasions some vaccinations can have adverse side effects.  Those are the exceptional cases.

My daughter the doctor just returned from a vacation in Munich for Octoberfest and I spoke to her on the phone this evening.  She said Hopkins is requiring all the doctors and nurses to get the swine flu vaccination.  Most hospitals and clinics are doing likewise.  She'll probably get her vaccination next week.  When she told me that, it sold me.  (She has been to Central America repeatedly, throughout Africa, and to Tailand, alone; she jumps out of airplanes; she jogs alone in Baltimore; she is pretty indifferent to danger; but she said she "would rather have the swine flu vaccine than the swine flu."  I can't argue with that elementary reasoning.)  I teach in classrooms populated by hundreds of students daily, and if the swine flu vaccination was available for me now, I would get it.  I'm not especially afraid of the swine flu.  I'm not at all afraid of the vaccine.  I'm by nature not a worrier, but I hate being sick with a flu virus.  If my employer required swine flu vaccination (unlikely), I would compy.  If the government mandated it (even more unlikely), I would comply.  Should the government mandate it for everyone?  No. 

The bottom line: it should not be mandated by the government for everyone, but people who are concerned about swine flu should get vaccinated. 

 

Dave Hanson:

George Washington required the Continental Army to get vaccinated for small pox.

I suppose I'm a fool for questioning a history professor, but here goes:  The smallpox vaccine was developed in 1796 by Edward Jenner, an English physician.  Washington was President from 1789 until 1797, so he would have had the authority to order a vaccination of the troops, but I was not even aware that there was a Continental Army in existence at that time.  I suppose it could have happened, and I certainly have no proof that it didn't, but the timing and circumstances would have had to be quite remarkable.  I also wonder how the vaccine would have been administered.  Surely there were no hollow needles available, and any method used to introduce the vaccine under the skin would have been as likely to produce infection as inoculation.  Washington himself died in 1799, probably as a result of being bled three times in less than 24 hours as treatment for a sore throat, proving that medical knowledge was severely deficient in that era.  I'm not trying to impugn your stated fact -- just wondering.... 

bobchristenson:

This is not exactly on topic, but recently I read on ABC news that Robert Melamede  of the company Cannabis Science  is developing a lozenge made from cannabinoids  that helps suppress the immune system. Apparently the immune system on overdrive is partly what kills people who have swine flu and he wants to market his product for that specific reason. I would never suggest that anyone with a lung infection light up a joint but you could just switch from oregano to some other special ingredient for your spaghetti sauce. It might not cure you but you'll have a much more enjoyable time while you're sick. 

 

 Bob:   Isn't a compromised immune system one of the factors that make the flu so deadly.  If the cannabinoids suppress the immune system further, doesn't that make it more deadly?  Or maybe I'm reading your choice of "suppress" incorrectly.

Leesa

This question seems especially relevant right now, given that I've been dealing with hospitals in Myrlte Beach and Florence, South Carolina to Stanleytown Rehab Center and RMH here in Virginia for the past two weeks.  (We went on vacation and Mom -- who is diabetic -- broke her femur, then had some circulation problems which resulted in an amputation.)  The ER's are full of people presenting with flu-like symptoms.  Some ER's have "Quarrantined/Reserved" seating areas for these persons, and the staff is quick to disinfect these seating areas when the patients move.  I've got to say that I've been very diligent in hand washing/sanitizing these past few days.

My official response is below:

I think employers have every right to require their employees to get the swine flu vaccination.  Lewis Gale recently instituted a similar requirement for their employees – either get the vaccination or wear a mask.  Lewis Gale is in the business of providing health care to the public.  Other professions have restrictions (i.e. -- weight restrictions for flight attendants or uniforms for cocktail waitresses.)  If you don’t want to participate, don’t apply.

 

I don’t think the government has the right to mandate flu vaccines.  Flu is an annual and/or seasonal occurrence and acts more like a virus than other diseases which fall into the “required” category (small pox, polio, diphtheria, measles).  The vaccine does not prevent the flu, it only lessens the symptoms. 

 

I do think it is okay for the government to recommend that people get vaccinated. 

 

PS -- It's good to be back!