Dave Hanson:

Sandi Saunders:

Freeda Lynne Cathcart:

Dave Hanson:

Honestly, you're coming across (to me) like an in-your-face evangelist.

That's really harsh, Dave and I don't think deserved.  I haven't used any judgements against you.  Not one. 

Miss Freeda, I enjoyed your posts about Michael Jackson and the outrage against women that you shared.  I have also felt the rebuke of Mr. Hanson and have retreated to "the dog blog", but I still read the posts here.  I will say that I do not think he always means to sound as harsh as he does, but I am willing to concede I am wrong about that as well.  Thanks for your support of women and your obvious courage!   Passion is important.  You go girl!

She's passionate about this, I'm not.  She thinks that makes me a brick head, and I'm harsh.  Okay.  But let's not make this into a "she versus he" contest, Sandi.  It was a polite disagreement between two people.  Part of what annoyed me was the characterization of women who have c-section deliveries as victims and the doctors that perform them as sexist oppressors of women.  The best OBGYN I know is a phone call away 24X7 but I hate to bother her with stuff like this.  I have not asked her, but I think she would laugh at the suggestion that she or other women in her profession force unwilling patients to have c-section deliveries for no good medical reason and that they are anti-women in any way.

Oh, Dear!

I do so hate it when we butt heads and gnash our teeth!  I have followed this conversation and have felt a little surprised at issue.  While I am aware of widespread discussions in the mainstream media about the increased numbers of C-sections performed and the varied reasons and causes for the numbers, I never saw or see this as a woman's rights issue.  I, however, have a few comments.    

First , Dave, you were a wee bit testy; the evangelist comment was a little over the top, but I forgive you.  I never get between a father and his daughter.  I knew right away that you saw this from your perspective as a father with a daughter in the medical field.  Dad's should always defend their kids, especially their daughters.  In addition you said you were sorry.        

Second, Freeda, I guess I wondered why on earth this ended up as a court case?  I select a physician very carefully.  I want a doctor with whom I feel comfortable, who is honest and direct about my health and treatment, and whose judgement I trust.  If I do not feel this way, I go find another physician.   

I assume the lady you mentioned stated up front that she wanted a conventional birth with her second child.  If the physician was not comfortable with that choice, she should have looked for a physician who would honor her request.   

It is possible that the physician agreed at the beginning of the pregnancy, and developed concerns about the health of the baby or mother as the pregnancy progressed --perhaps the baby was larger than anticipated or the mother gained more weight than was appropriate.  At this point, the physician advised the patient that a C-section was recommended. 

Now, does a patient have the right to force a physician or a hospital to follow a procedure that they view as highly risky or endangering the mother?  I do not know the answer, but I think not.  

Even at this point, the patient had a choice.  She could seek another physician who would try a traditional birth or do as you did, have the child at home.  I would not want to make that choice, but the choice was hers to make.  Although in all honesty, I think any physician would hesitate to jump in late in a pregnancy to employ a delivery another physician had deemed inappropriate.   

I realize I am speaking hypothetically, but the only reason why a patient would go to court in a case like this is to force a physician to do what she wanted instead of what the physician felt was the best practice.  I have to tell you, the last man or woman I want standing by the delivery table is a physician performing a delivery he believes is wrong! 

I also think back to an earlier conversation about health care and the effects of lawsuits on medical practice and costs.  I wonder what would the lady have done had the physician honored her request and there were extensive problems with the delivery?  What if the damage was so great that the lady could not carry any more children?  What if the baby was injured or physically harmed by the traditional birth?  Would she have held the physician responsible even though he advised against the procedure.  Would she have said, thank you anyway doctor, next time I will listen to you, and walk away?  

While I understand your concerns and your perspective, I just think that Dave, like me, felt this case was really did not rise to the level of concern or significance that you do.  That does not mean you are wrong or that the case was without merit.  It just does not seem that way to me.

I also feel a little guilty because I brought up women's rights in responding to Frederick, and I fear it may have led to this issue.

So, I am going to apologize to both of you. 

Sharron Smith 

P.S. Sandi, nothing intimidates you!  Glad to see you at least dropping by!  I miss you! 

 

  

    

 

 

Dave Hanson:

I don't think my daughter, who is a top-notch OBGYN, would appreciate your characterization of her field of medicine, either.  It's a field that is increasingly run by women for women, not against them.  I'm sure you do good work, Freeda, and I wish you much success.

Ah, your daughter is an OBGYN and you sound like the proud dad that you should be.  I agree that I don't know why your wife had 3 cesareans but I do know several reasons why a repeat cesarean would be a wise choice and perhaps the only healthy choice for some circumstances.

That characterization wasn't mine, it is what some mothers have said.  I hope that you can understand that I can't be silent when someone attributes something to me that I didn't say or takes something out of context.  The governor respected my work enough to appoint me as the consumer representative on the Advisory Board for Midwfery, a Board associated with the Board of Medicine and part of the Dept. of Health Professionals.  I've completed one of three years of my term so far.  I respect the OB representative that serves on the Board with me.

One of the challenges we're having in VA is the encouragement of some of the OBs to treat the Certified Professional Midwives, who transport mothers to the hospital because of complications that developed at home, with respect and to have a cooperative transfer of care.   It was pointed out at one of our Board meetings that one of the reasons that we're having challenges in our state is because the American College of OBGYNs (ACOG) currently has a campaign where they are distributing bumper stickers that say "Home Deliveries Are For Pizza".  At the National Summit that was held in 2007 (I incorrectly said it was in 2005 before) there were several well respected OBs that participated on the panels.  One of them sits on the Ethics Board of ACOG.  They admitted that there was not consensus in their profession and there is much work to be done.  Some of the work involves hospital policies and insurance constrictions.

I listened to the mother's story who was forced to have a cesarean again today and she concludes her story with:

“Justice must and will be done.  May God use me so that no family may endure the persecution I’ve  suffered.  I’ve been raped by the system.”

It is my responsibility as the consumer representative to make sure that her story and other mother's stories who feel the same way are considered as we regulate Certified Professional MIdwives and integrate out-of-hospital births into the system in our state.

Dave Hanson:

Well, you posted at least ten comments directed at me today, leading up to the implication that I am a brickhead.

I counted only 7 that were in response to you (and one of those was to Ricky).  The others were in response to Joe and Clonnie.  I don't think you're familiar with Jethro Tull's song Thick As A Brick but my citing that song was not an implication for you being a brickhead.  I was just acknowledging that you said you weren't interested in hearing any more from me.  I'm sorry but I can't help but LOL.  One of the lines from the song is:

"And your wise men don't know how it feels to be think as a brick".

Since you've sired three children I'm assuming that at least several times you've known what it feels like to be thick as a brick :)

Can a sista get a little:

R-E-S-P-E-C-T!!!!!

BTW I thought MJ's will was brilliant!

Sharron Smith:

Second, Freeda, I guess I wondered why on earth this ended up as a court case? 

Take a few minutes and listen to the mother's story and you won't wonder any longer.  Also forward it to your OB friend and see what she says about it.  It seems more that the hospital policies created the situation and it also sounded like there might not have been agreement between the OBs attending to the case.   The result was appalling.

http://vimeo.com/4895023

This is a women's rights issue.  One of the resolutions of the National Organization for Women is about supporting access to midwifery in our nation.

 

Sandi Saunders:

Thanks for your support of women and your obvious courage!   Passion is important.  You go girl!

Thanks!  I needed that :)

Freeda, my daughter is very respectful and supportive of professional midwives, but no, she is not too keen on home births.  The risk, as you know well, is the danger of unexpected life-threatening complications that can require quick action beyond what a widwife is qualified and legally authorized to do.  Midwives can and often do work in hospitals.  She works alongside them frequently at Johns Hopkins Hospital.  Babies don't have to be born in hospitals, but I think it's the best place for labor, delivery, and neo-natal care.  You can agree or disagree, as you wish, and I don't want to prolong the debate about this.  Have a good night and holiday weekend.

As I said before:

"It's hard to see discrimination when its the norm in one's culture, especially when the current system of law upholds the discrimination."

Fortunately the laws are changing.   It sounds like your daughter works with Certified Nurse Midwives (CNM) who are usually trained to work in hospitals and most states require physician sueprvision.  I think it was 2006 when VA changed its CNM statute from supervision to collaboration with a physician.  2005 VA legalized Certified Professional Midwives (they are Direct Entry Midwives who attend out-of-hosipital births).  2009 the CPM statute was altered so that CPM regulations will be evidence based.  So thoughts and feelings by medical professionals or other professionals won't matter if its not evidence based.

You are comfortable with your thoughts on the matter and seem to indicate no interest to have your thoughts challenged by reading any recent studies on the safety of homebirth or on the dangers of hospital birth. That's okay.   I'm reading the diary of one of my ancestors from the 1700's who owned over 400 slaves in VA.  I doubt that he would have been interested to learn about the work ethic of African Americans and how they could be good citizens.  Personally, I don't feel the need to apologize for slavery even though some of my ancestors benefitted from it.  Those were the same ancestors who whipped their children and suppressed their wives. I figure that the best way I can make up for some of my ancestors misdeeds is to do my best to speak up for those who are being oppressed and to work to "make this world a better place for you and for me and the entire human race." MJ

I am glad that the state of VA apologized for slavery since the state was the one who legalized it.  I don't understand why the US government felt the need to apologize for it since a war was fought over it and the side who abolished slavery won.

Fireworks are so pretty outside.  I hope you enjoy this weekend as well.  Perhaps I'll see you in the park.  I've been going in the morning before it gets hot around 9:30 in case you want to see me or avoid me :)

 

Sharron Smith:

At one time the commission did have some authority to regualte the monopoly.  Now, however, they can only regulate requests related to fuel costs.

 

Sharron,

The cost of fuel is only one piece of the puzzle when it comes to the cost of doing business for an electric utility. As you claim a lack of regulation from the commission, the regulation from the environmental side of the equation continues to grow. From a story in the RT not long ago, AEP requested permission to construct a high voltage power line from Loudon County, VA into Pennsylvania to improve their transmission efficiency and increase capacity due to growing demand. Of course, a myriad of environmental groups "representing" all those in the path of the line came out of the woodwork threatening litigation, classic NIMBY. Chances are it will be off to court and possibly some years down the road and at much greater expense (paid for by the consumers of power) the line will be built. Moral of the story, the utilities are not as free to do as they please as you suggest. I don't propose they are perfect and don't make bad decisions, but I find the same mantras of corporate greed, "overpaid CEO's," and comparisons to Wall Street creeping into the news.

This may all become moot if the sweeping legislation that has passed the House ( which no legislator has actually read nor seemingly cares to read) becomes law. Stay tuned!

Nick

 

 

If Michael Jackson had been in a hospital instead of at home then maybe he might not have died.  One never knows when a life threatening situation might happen.  But then some people die in a hospital anyway like Farrah did.  Maybe people die when they're suppose to die because that's when their number is up.  That's my dad's theory.  I guess he passed it onto me :)

Robin Hinrichs:

Its a biological fact that women are different from men.  Strength, hormones, etc.  But that does not mean they are lesser.

From my typical and perhaps overly analytical male brain, if two things are different in any respect then one of them is superior in that respect.  No?   Could we not agree that both sexes have strengths and weaknesses, none of which are universal across the spectrum of human sexuality?  Couldn't we agree that it takes at least two delightfully different sexes to perpetuate the human race?  Some may want to argue that the race could be run with far fewer men, but that is a discussion for another time and place.

One of the major benefits of this panel is the wide variety of educational opportunities it offers.  Just 48 hours ago I believed that we were a diverse group of people who could discuss any subject, agree or disagree about it, and enjoy some good natured ribbing and humor at the same time.  How naive I am!  We are a diverse group all right, but we also apparently hold some views and emotions the intensity of which is at least a twelve on a ten scale.

My oldest daughter delivered my first grandchild by C-section after many hours of unproductive labor.  She also made a valiant attempt at natural childbirth with her second child, but ended up electing to have another C-section for the same reasons as her previous birth experience.  I asked her again yesterday just to make sure, but she assured me that at no time did her obstetrician ever pressure her to choose either delivery method, but simply advised her of all the risks and possible outcomes and allowed her to make the decision.  According to her, the only negative aspect to the decision was the feeling that she might be judged a "failure" or "less of a woman" by some women who seem to breeze through natural childbirth.

I have no way of knowing for sure, but I suspect that had my daughter been born in 1878 instead of 1978 her childbirth experience may have ended quite differently.  In an era when natural childbirth was the only option, many women and children died during, or as a result of the birthing process.  I have no desire to return to that era and I suspect most women feel the same way.  I am for allowing women the freedom to decide the degree of medical assistance they wish to receive during childbirth, and if there are doctors or medical facilities who interfere in that decision I stand against them.  Admittedly, my knowledge and experience is limited here, but I have a hard time seeing this as a widespread problem.  Then again, I could be wrong -- I am a man after all.

My apologies to Dave.  I should have supported him sooner, but we're pretty typical males here on the panel.  If we have a Sergeant York who's willing to run out into no-man's land and take one for the team, our tendency is to duck down and yell, "Go get 'em Sarge!" 

Nick Prout:

The cost of fuel is only one piece of the puzzle when it comes to the cost of doing business for an electric utility.

Right again, Nick, and may I also add that the volatility and uncertainty of the cost of fuel figures into the equation as well.  The cost of electricity produced by nuclear reactors or hydroelectric dams may remain pretty predictable, but sadly these methods produce far too little of our electrical energy.  Most of our power is produced by burning fossil fuels and the cost of coal and oil is a crap-shoot whose only predictable aspect is that it will continue to increase.   Our President has expressed his conviction (I heard him with my own ears) that the cost of meeting future government regulations will stop the construction of additional coal-fired electricity generating plants and lead to the eventual closing of the remaining ones.  Such action, coupled with the ever rising cost of oil and our refusal to drill offshore and in Alaska can have only two possible results: not enough electricity to meet our needs and sky-rocketing energy prices. 

Our refusal to accept the construction of nuclear powered generators is illogical also to my way of thinking.  Advancing technology continues to make this one of the safest and most eco-friendly methods available to us.  If densely populated countries such as France can embrace nuclear power I don't see why the United Sates can't build a few more plants.  Well, that's not exactly true.  I can see why we reject the method.  Embracing it would strengthen America and make us less dependent on those who wish to limit our greatness and thereby make us just another unremarkable member of the world community.  

Sharron Smith:

I never get between a father and his daughter...Dad's should always defend their kids, especially their daughters.

Sire. I believe the word is "sire."  Men sire children -- they don't father them, or at least that seems to be a sentiment recently expressed here.   Men are totally useless except for that one indispensable quality they have: the ability to sire.  That's why I say that we have more men than we need.  Just pick out a few of the sensitive, caring, non-threatening ones and set them up as sires.  The rest?  They can't reproduce by themselves so just refuse to cook anything for them and they'll starve to death or kill each other fighting over hamburgers at fast food joints. 

Clonnie Yearout:

Robin Hinrichs:

Its a biological fact that women are different from men.  Strength, hormones, etc.  But that does not mean they are lesser.

From my typical and perhaps overly analytical male brain, if two things are different in any respect then one of them is superior in that respect.  No?   Could we not agree that both sexes have strengths and weaknesses, none of which are universal across the spectrum of human sexuality?  Couldn't we agree that it takes at least two delightfully different sexes to perpetuate the human race?  Some may want to argue that the race could be run with far fewer men, but that is a discussion for another time and place.

One of the major benefits of this panel is the wide variety of educational opportunities it offers.  Just 48 hours ago I believed that we were a diverse group of people who could discuss any subject, agree or disagree about it, and enjoy some good natured ribbing and humor at the same time.  How naive I am!  We are a diverse group all right, but we also apparently hold some views and emotions the intensity of which is at least a twelve on a ten scale.

.....

 

Then again, I could be wrong -- I am a man after all.

My apologies to Dave.  I should have supported him sooner, but we're pretty typical males here on the panel.  If we have a Sergeant York who's willing to run out into no-man's land and take one for the team, our tendency is to duck down and yell, "Go get 'em Sarge!" 

Clonnie,

I was trying to keep my post somewhat lighthearted.  Not sure if that came across.  The feminine in me hates conflict..... :-)  I totally agree that objective traits that can be measured can be labeled superior/inferior.  Its when you get in the subjective areas that it gets messy.  I was just trying to make the point that different did not mean unequal.

I was also trying to stay out of the c-section street fight.  In my view, it is not so much an incident of male/female rights, but patient rights/responsibilities in general.  There is no question that our medical system, in its drive to do the right thing (whatever THAT is) makes grievous errors.  Besides the woman in question, what about the young man not yet a teen ager forced into cancer treatments against his and his parents wishes. ( please don't interpret a pro or con view on this one)  There are so many factors at play that do not involve the patients wishes that I'm not even going to start into them.  (starts with insurance)  Some I have alluded to before in other topics. Ethics is not an easy topic.

Our two rockem-sockem panelists presently at odds each have legitimate views, backed with personal experiences and investments ( emotional ones).  They are NEVER going to see eye to eye, or even have much common ground.  This is neither a good thing or a bad thing, its just the way life is in their experience.  Because of their investment in the issue, it seems that any acceptance of the others point of view is in some way a betrayal of their own beliefs, experiences and family.  It seems to me that it is this very trait in humans that makes us so loyal, endearing and warlike. 

To me, the strident tone of Freeda was offputting, and therby affecting my view of her real message.  I had to take out that feeling to get to the heart of what she was saying.  I don't believe she could say it any differently because of her own experiences.  The same with Dave - it seems he felt he had to defend his daughters profession, and was taking it a little personally - also based on his experiences.  And his defensiveness only made Freeda take up the battle even more.  Everyone wants to be heard and acknowledged.  And everyone has been heard and acknowledged.  But not everyone will be swayed, and we must be content with that.  And accept that the other person is not wrong for it.

I still think we are a great panel, able to discuss etc.  What family is not the better for a little dust-up.  I don't really think of you as a "naive male" Clonnie, which is too bad cause I like the naive ones....... They are so much fun!

Robin

Why did this thing edit out pre   teen?  spelled with all the letters together???  That a bad word??

***

Robin Hinrichs:

I was trying to keep my post somewhat lighthearted.  Not sure if that came across.  The feminine in me hates conflict..... :-)

Great post, Robin, I find little to nothing in it to argue with, and In fact, you expressed quite a few of the thoughts and emotions I felt yesterday.  I think some of our friction (or perceived friction) comes from the fact that we have come to feel like we know each other better than we actually do.  When we bump up against another panelist's strongly held feelings in some area it may come as a bit of a surprise to us, almost as if we just found out that our Aunt Sally voted for a Democrat/Republican in the last election.

I found your statement about the feminine in you hating conflict interesting because it may mean that I have at least one feminine trait for I hate it also.  I prefer amicable discussion and persuasion with respect for all views and emotions, and I avoid raucous arguments with personal insults and everyone trying to talk over each other.  I'm not saying I can't be drawn into open conflict, but when it happens I consider it a personal failure on my part and I withdraw as soon as possible.  I do have a tendency to drift in and out of attempts at humor which I realize may be easily misinterpreted.  What can I say?  I have flaws!

 

Clonnie Yearout:

Sharron Smith:

I never get between a father and his daughter...Dad's should always defend their kids, especially their daughters.

Sire. I believe the word is "sire."  Men sire children -- they don't father them, or at least that seems to be a sentiment recently expressed here.   Men are totally useless except for that one indispensable quality they have: the ability to sire.  That's why I say that we have more men than we need.  Just pick out a few of the sensitive, caring, non-threatening ones and set them up as sires.  The rest?  They can't reproduce by themselves so just refuse to cook anything for them and they'll starve to death or kill each other fighting over hamburgers at fast food joints. 

 

 Gee Whiz Clonnie!

What on earth did I say that warranted this reply?  Forgive me guys, I am off to the next question.  When the the bystanders and peace makers start taking fire, its time to move on.  

Sharron Smith

 

Nick Prout:

Of course, a myriad of environmental groups "representing" all those in the path of the line came out of the woodwork threatening litigation, classic NIMBY. Chances are it will be off to court and possibly some years down the road and at much greater expense (paid for by the consumers of power) the line will be built. Moral of the story, the utilities are not as free to do as they please as you suggest. I don't propose they are perfect and don't make bad decisions, but I find the same mantras of corporate greed, "overpaid CEO's," and comparisons to Wall Street creeping into the news.

This may all become moot if the sweeping legislation that has passed the House ( which no legislator has actually read nor seemingly cares to read) becomes law. Stay tuned!

 

 Dear Mr. Nick,

Without a doubt, this is a complex issue with many, many, many, dear, dear, dear, dear  vested interests!  I am looking forward to learning a lot about this issue as we discuss next week's question.  I plan to move my discussion of these issue there following this post. Looking forward to seeing all the perceptions and points of view of our panel.  See you there!

Sharron Smith