Roanoke City Council

Re: Prayer in City Council meetings

johnnyjj — Sun, 18 Jan 2009 20:09:13 GMT

I keep seeing these discussions. They just don't go away. Here it is, the First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. " That's it, in its entirety. Nothing more and nothing less. The amendment protects the people from the government and not the other way around. When are intelligent people going to get it right? The VERY key word here is Congress. So, all you state, county and city governments, do as you please. If you don't want to be concerned about a bunch of protesting Muslims or whatever they are, don't be. But, for GOD's sake, have some backbone. And surely don't be concerned about a bunch of left wing bleeding heart liberal lawyers from the ACLU. You first need to be an atheist to be a member of that group. Congress starts each session with a prayer and they have a chaplin! Mayor Lea, stand up for what is your right, guaranteed by our Constitution. Take your country back!

Re: Prayer in City Council meetings

Walker — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:40:22 GMT

Either I haven't been clear or you missed my point. Christians TAKE it, sure we make a little noise about it, but we don't threaten to kill you. Muslims and Atheists don't take it.. They file lawsuits and threaten people.

Didn't South Park buckle under pressure by Muslims? I think they did. The rest of the shows you mentioned, all of them dog out Christianity every chance they get. RARELY do they touch the others. Coincidentally, they are all written/produced by hard-core leftists. Probably why you watch and I don't.

I don't really expect Atheists and Muslims to abide by the same rules as everyone else, but it sure would garner a little more respect if they did.

Re: Prayer in City Council meetings

roenoke — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 22:11:07 GMT

Walker:
What is the ONLY religion here in America that can be made fun of on major network television?

Walker quit with this silly anecdotal crap.

Christian, Jews, and Muslims are all made fun of on TV. Ever watch SNL, Family Guy, South Park, Simpsons? All faiths are fair game.

If anyone ever got on TV and said the things about Chistians that Pat Robertson says about Muslims everyday on WSLS they would be run out of town.

Christians are FAR from innocently persecuted victims of a atheist world.

Quit your crying.

Re: Prayer in City Council meetings

kdnavrat — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:42:26 GMT

The original oath of office -- as it is specified in the United States Constitution in Article II, Section 1, and subsection 8 - reads "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

So help me God is not and should not be part of the ceremony given that it is a public, hence non-religious event.

It's time the fiction of God be retired from our political arena.

Amen.

Re: Prayer in City Council meetings

Walker — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:46:16 GMT

Another example of atheists trying to impose their NON-beliefs.

Atheists: Remove ‘So Help Me God’ From Inaugural Oath

Thursday, January 8, 2009 10:27 AM

By: Rick Pedraza

Article Font Size

Atheists and several non-religious organizations have filed a 39-page lawsuit to prohibit the use of religious phrases and references to God when President-elect Barack Obama takes the oath of office Jan. 20.

The lawsuit, filed Tuesday in Washington, demands the words “so help me God” and other “explicitly religious dogma” not be uttered at the end of the swearing-in ceremony, the Washington Post reports. In addition, the suit will try to prohibit ministers from invoking a benediction in which God and religion are discussed

Sad, very sad. Good thing this will NOT happen.

Re: Prayer in City Council meetings

Walker — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:00:02 GMT

First, I respect your opinion, so I hope we can discuss this in a civil manner.

I think we have two sides in this who often mis-understand each other's goals. It's a touchy topic so it gets heated quickly, and nobody listens or allows debate without name-calling and insults.

You are right that the majority of Americans believe in God, most are Christians. However, there is a very influential/powerful secular movement here as well that, I feel, is bent on undermining Christianity whenever and wherever it can. And they have to means to do it, even though they are in the smallest minority. Look at the entertainment industry. The Golden Compass, for example, was written SPECIFICALLY to undermine Christianity. The DaVinci Code, written for the same reason.

Those are the OBVIOUS examples. But, If you watch TV or go to movies you see and hear Christianity being mocked and ridiculed whenever it is mentioned. Christians in movies are NEVER shown to be logical, intelligent and/or caring people. Typically they are protrayed as hateful, stupid, prejudiced or even evil. Its the truth. Christians are portrayed in the same light that blacks were for years and years. Simplistic, emotional and irrational.

Our universities and school systems have also been over-taken by leftwing secularists. They won't even call it Christmas break anymore. I don't care much about that in particular, but that type of stigmatization carries over into other things. Major corporations now think its best to refrain from wishing a customer Merry Christmas, EVEN though their research would CLEARLY tell them that the vast majority of their customers here are Christians.

So, why would Lowe's or Home Depot (not saying they do) tell their employees to refrain form saying it?

Well, it's because there is a HUGE, concerted effort by Secularists to boycott and/or punish ANYONE who says or does things they disagree with.

Why do you think homosexuals want people who say their behavior is immoral to be charged with "hate speech" crimes? It is on their agenda. They ultimately want pastors to be outlawed from quoting scripture that says the same thing.

I have a quesion for you that requires honesty to answer.

What is the ONLY religion here in America that can be made fun of on major network television?

Re: Prayer in City Council meetings

mscotthokie — Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:24:49 GMT

Not everyone believes in God. Most people do. I don't, Despite some assertions that Christianity is under assault by these kinds of complaints, I find it hard to believe when the vast majority of people in this country are believers.

Re: Prayer in City Council meetings

ibsaved — Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:22:34 GMT

There are times for private prayer and private worship. there are times when we are called to be a public witness of our faith. I am not a "religious zealot" when I pray publicly when asked. If I deny my Lord publicly by not praying as asked then I have missed His will for that moment. Please don't confuse rights with responsibility.

Re: Prayer in City Council meetings

Walker — Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:58:03 GMT

I understand the point you are trying to make. However, you are mistaken...the founding fathers never wrote ANYTHING about a separation of church and state in the Constitution. Not a tittle. Now, once again, I am NOT for a theocracy, but this whole "separation of church and state" lie has allowed for absurd things like THIS to happen.

The founding fathers were Christians, not humanists or anything else. They state in our founding documents...time and again, that our "CREATOR"...or God, is the provider of liberty. W are and have ALWAYS been a Christian nation.

Now, do I want all gubmint meetings to start with a 30 minute sermon? No. I just think people should respect and honor the history and tradition of our great country.

Once again...we have the Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion. This was written so that the government couldn't FORCE you to pay or adhere to specific, government Church. In other words, pray to whomever and wherever you want, however you want.

Re: Prayer in City Council meetings

Henry Hale — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 23:43:38 GMT

These are not attacks against God; actually, they are the exact opposite. Most Christians don't understand that the problem with Lea's prayer isn't that people don't want him to pray, but they want him to give a non-sectarian prayer. God is not an exclusive entity to Christianity, and therein lies the problem and why the United States of America was formed in the first place. The colonies didn't want to be under the thumb of the Church of England anymore and wanted each of their citizens to make his or her own decision regarding personal liberties.

Most people that disapprove of Christian prayers at government meetings are very spiritual and religious (believers) "agibson" who want to preserve the intent of the founding fathers regarding the separation of church and state from our government. Anyone who doesn't see past or understand the purpose of keeping prayers in government meeting non-sectarian are the ones who are self-condemned. Take time and pray for yourself.

Re: Prayer in City Council meetings

swvaroot — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 21:38:51 GMT

Enough, is enough. The time has come to stop allowing the wicked to drive God out of public life. This is not a civil issue, this is God vs. Satan. It is time to drive these anti-Christ out of Virginia and out of America!! America is a choice land blessed of God and an inheritence for those that will serve Him. If we tolerate the wicked they will bring a curse and pestilence on us all.

It is time for christians to stop being weak. Exercise your faith like Joshua and drive the wicked from the Promised Land. We owe it to our ancestors who fought and died to make us free!!

Re: Prayer in City Council meetings

agibson — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 20:58:53 GMT

I think a lot of all these attacks against God...yes against God....is just to get a rise out of Christians. What is a Christian?---a Christian is someone who has made a confession of faith to God, acknowledging their helplessness to save themselves, and their need of a Savior, who is Jesus Christ. It requires regeneration of the heart and nothing short of this to be saved.

I am just sick and tired of all these nonbelievers and non-Christians spewing their hatred and disbelief of God and His redeemer Son, Jesus Christ, into the world.

Stand up Mr. Lea and never back down or compromise your faith in Jesus Christ, because to disown Him is to be disowned BY Him.

I will continue to pray for the lost and unbelieving that they will come to their senses one day before it is too late for them. As of now, they are self-condemned.

Re: Prayer in City Council meetings

cadle_0 — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 20:43:33 GMT

Normal 0

It is evident that recent events in other municipal localities have prompted this discussion. Mr. Cooper is apparently riding the wave of outspoken malcontents who have appeared on the scene since the U. S. Supreme Court declared in 1992 that the recitation of "nonsectarian" prayers by invited clergy at public high school graduations is unconstitutional. Their conclusion then was stated as: "it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers."

Yet, in 2005, a federal appeals court upheld the Chesterfield County Council's practice of inviting a variety of clergy members to lead its nonsectarian opening prayers. Also recall that it rejected a claim by a self-described "witch" that she should be allowed to lead the prayers. It should be pointed out that the significant point relating to this case is that the opening prayers were rotated among those of different beliefs. Rev. Hashmel Turner, a resident of Fredericksburg who, as a council member, took his turn in leading the customary council opening prayer. Rev. Turner caused a mushroom of politico disarray that initiated a series of somewhat vitriolic darts being tossed about, for innocently finishing his prayer by saying "in Jesus name." Also recall that seventeen chaplains resigned from the state police office in a case relating to this. All of this stemmed from the Fredericksburg regular council meeting where some unnamed citizen became offended, whereupon he then elicited help from activist groups and threatened a lawsuit if the elected Christian council member was not properly censored. City officials quickly adopted a policy requiring "nondenominational" prayers at public political gatherings, fearing that if they did not do so, lawsuits could occur. Apparently, this has become the norm.

Unfortunately, I suspect that something akin to this will be the result in our city as well. I have an alternate suggestion: Why not ask a guest clergyman to offer the opening prayer at council meeting where there is a short announcement (or it could be publicized beforehand). The opening prayer could then be rotated among what would be an approved list of community religious leaders chosen from among faiths that are Christians, Jewish Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, Toaist, or even atheists (I’m not sure if they pray or not). This will alleviate the possibility of offence of anyone and the need to dictate an end to the prayer. This would also solve the dilemma, articulated by Ms O’Connor’s ruling concerning the establishment clause, that no religion could be “singled out” and therefore defeat the very purpose of the First Amendment. This is now known as the “Lemon Test”.

Personally, I applaud the actions of Sherman Lea, but yet I understand the implications of his actions and also thankful that I live in a country where each segment of society has equal rights.

Re: Prayer in City Council meetings

nj8892 — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 19:34:18 GMT

I think that Vice Mayor Lea should stand his ground and remain on the rotation of ministers who offer opening prayers at council meetings. How wonderful that in today's (politically correct) world all that people have to worry about is a Christian minister praying for guidance for our local governemental leaders. It was asked below how Christians would feel if they were forced to be subject to a Hindu or Muslim prayer; well, to begin with, I personally would only be offended if I truly felt 'forced'.

mmartin:

What do you think about Vice Mayor Sherman Lea's decision to refrain from leading the city council invocation because of an inadvertent reference to "the son of the Lord"?

Secondly, this is still (Thank, God!) America, land of the free, which means anyone is free to pray to whomever or whatever they wish to pray to. Finally, anyone, regardless of their religious beliefs, or lack thereof, who is offended by a prayer to the One true living God, is also free to leave the room, the meeting, the state or this country. When all is said and done, every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Re: Prayer in City Council meetings

ashbuf — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 19:27:49 GMT

Why is it that only certain things are "allowed"? It is offensive to me that I can't say certain things or do certain things because others don't believe in it. I believe in God, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. If you don't that is fine with me and ok for you to say you don't in my presence but I can't say I do in your presence? How is this fair?