Marvin Foster:

Nick Prout:

Perhaps the President and Attorney General could learn something from the Israelis.

 

 

Nick,

Great post.  I think you have got it nailed.  You thought of some risks that I didn't think of before writing my post.  Now I am more in agreement with yours than with mine.

 

 I still haven't figured out what exactly you two are talking about with your reference to the Israelis.  Maybe I will get an explanation tonight.

Bob Terry:

Wow, Mr Yearout. Taking your side certainly did draw me some attacks. That's OK. Now I'll be even more politically incorrect and wish everyone a happy thanksgiving and MERRY CHRISTMAS. Take THAT!

Happy Hanuka, Kwanzaa, and Waqf al Arafa.  Woof woof!

 

Donald Koop:

Mohammed has pleaded guilty to the charges against him, charges that would earn an execution.  Why is there another step required, that of starting from the beginning and causing such an uproar among the public? ... I would submit these terrorists to execution by firing squad and disposal at sea.

Actually, I don't think so.  It is my understanding that KSM confessed to a long list of terrorist plots while under "enhanced interrogation" (a.k.a. torture) but he has not plead guilting in any judicial proceeding (military or civilian).  Evidently you don't see the need for the formality of either a military tribunal or a criminal trial, just summary execution.  That might have been an option at the time he was apprehended by Pakistan officials, but I think it's too late for that now that he's securely in our custody.  Inconvenient as it can be, our pesky constitution requires a jury trial (even in time of war).

Dave, borrowing Ricky's computer

 Are you really exhausted? I have spent thirty five years of my life passionatley studying history proving that  a conspiracy beyond your imagination is, in fact, proceeding as we live and breathe. They call it The New World Order.  I have spent thirty five years attempting to wake people up to simple facts that cannot be denied, and have been met with ridicule, derision, contempt, and complacency by people who wouldn't ever seriously read a book on the subject. People who wouldn't spend two months studying the Constitution. Oh, and I must say....I've studied conspiracy history long before there was an internet. Welcome to my world of frustration and exhaustion.

One small comment about the question of the week.

"Do you agree with the Obama administration's plan to prosecute the the Sept. 11 terrorists in federal court? What would you do with them?"

Doesn't this imply their guilt? Sadly, this is the current trend in the American concept of jurisprudence. "They ARE terrorists, and they must be prosecuted....but where is the only question. So, they should be tried (somewhere), found guilty (we all know they are), and shot before sunrise!

 I'm sorry....I've lost hope.....this is the kind of thinking that exhausts me to no end. I do still advise research. Seriously.

http://www.ae911truth.org/

http://www.st911.org/

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/

http://www.911blogger.com/

....and if you don't believe anything on the internet, read...

The Unseen Hand, by Ralph Epperson

Secrets of the Federal Reserve, by Eustace Mullins

The Naked Capitalist, by Cleon Skousen

Why is Your Country at War, by Charles Lindbergh

Banking and Currency and the Money Trust, by Charles Lindbergh

Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler, by Antony Sutton

Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution, by Antony Sutton

America's Secret Establishment, by Antony Sutton

The New World Order, by Ralph Epperson

None Dare Call it Conspiracy, by Gary Allen

Rule by Secrecy, by Jim Marrs

....this would be a good start. It is a very small sampling of books I would recommend.  Read these books, and then make up your own mind. Don't spend too much time n the grassy knoll....it can be tiring.

pandira:

I have spent thirty five years of my life passionatley studying history proving that  a conspiracy beyond your imagination is, in fact, proceeding as we live and breathe. They call it The New World Order.  I have spent thirty five years attempting to wake people up to simple facts that cannot be denied, and have been met with ridicule, derision, contempt, and complacency by people who wouldn't ever seriously read a book on the subject.

Coincidentally, I've spent the last 35 years of my life passionately studying history also, and teaching it for much of that period.  I don't place much stock in conspiracy theories, personally, but I will respect you if you will reciprocate even though we see the world differently.  Fiction is sometimes presented as fact.  Misinformation is sometimes presented as fact.  Authentic facts can be denied but shouldn't be.  On the other hand, narratives assembling facts into interpretations invariably include bias selectivity, opinions, and assumptions, and that is where the disagreement begins.  Wouldn't life be dull (and fake) if everyone always agreed about everything!  I am familar with some of your bibilography and might take a look at some that are unfamiliar to me.  Please don't quiz me until I've had time to do my homework.

One suggestion: come out from the shadows with a bio and picture.  In this panel we are all friends who often disagree but try to do so with respect and open-mindedness.  We are suspicious of anonymous, faceless, and mysterious guests.  Speaking for myself, I would not publicly write or say anything that I would not want to be held accountable for.  Suit yourself, of course.

tbowersock:

 I still haven't figured out what exactly you two are talking about with your reference to the Israelis.

 

Tyler,

The readers digest version is that the Israelis do not pussyfoot around with terrorism. Their country is surrounded by those who wish to see their nation destroyed and therefore can not afford the luxury of opinion polls, political expedience and political correctness in dealing with threats and attacks.  For example, the case of Nadal Hasan, local boy gone bad, will most likely drag on for months while those in charge decide if this was terrorism, treason, a giant conspiracy or possibly the fault of the "eight years of failed policies." If this same scenario happened in the Israeli military, I suggest that justice would be dealt swiftly and surely, void of hand wringing and finger pointing.

Just sayin',

Nick

 

Dave Hanson:

One suggestion: come out from the shadows with a bio and picture.  In this panel we are all friends who often disagree but try to do so with respect and open-mindedness.  We are suspicious of anonymous, faceless, and mysterious guests.  Speaking for myself, I would not publicly write or say anything that I would not want to be held accountable for.  Suit yourself, of course.

 

I will echo Dave's sentiment. This is a pretty diverse group, opinionwise anyway, and fresh ideas are always welcome. Keep your anonymity for the Roundtable if you must, but bag the secret identity, let us know who you are, what your are about and join the discussion.

Nick

 

Nick to pandira..."I will echo Dave's sentiment. This is a pretty diverse group, opinionwise anyway, and fresh ideas are always welcome. Keep your anonymity for the Roundtable if you must, but bag the secret identity, let us know who you are, what your are about and join the discussion."

Nick, Dave, etc., I must say I know pandira. I will leave it to pandira to go public or not. I can vouch for pandira's over the top, lifetime of searching for the truth, and I know sincerity and an innate need to open eyes to a researched/perceived truth is the drive and passion. My hope is pandira will join in, adding another educated slant to our fine soup. Gip

Marvin Foster:

bobchristenson:

I make two assumptions. First, President Obama has all of the facts and knows what he is doing. Second, that our justice system is fair to all parties regardless of their beliefs.

 

 

Wow, Bob,

You start out with two dangerous assumptions.  I disagree with the first and, in many cases, the second also.

Marvin, Dangerous? Perhaps. I'm not a big Obama fan and I dislike his Keynesian economics (bailouts, stimulus packages,etc). But Obama is a smart guy and also has access to information that we don't have. He is also a lawyer and is probably good at judging the most likely outcomes of a trial in civil court, so I'll stick with my first assumption.

My second assumption is a bit more slippery. I know that our justice system is not always fair. I've been on the wrong end of that stick more than once. I can remember my first court appearance (for speeding) when  the judge called me up and said "Are you sure you can hear me through all that long hair, boy. ".Needless to say things did not go well. This case in question is very high profile so I doubt that we'll get a 1970's style redneck judge. This case will be scrutinized worldwide. I think and hope it will be fair so I'll also stick with my second assumption.

 

 

Nick Prout:

Mohammed has confessed to his crimes has requested execution of his captors. The military could have given him and his followers their day in court far from the bright lights of New York. A long drawn out media circus is exactly what Mohammed craves and that is what he is getting. You may disagree, but I consider that "making nice." Hope I am wrong.

 

 Yo, Mr. Nick!

I think Cal Thomas (column in today's paper) must have read your post (and maybe Clonnie's as well)!  Clearly you and Clonnie are standing in good (bad?) company!       Sharron

bobchristenson:

I make two assumptions. First, President Obama has all of the facts and knows what he is doing. Second, that our justice system is fair to all parties regardless of their beliefs.

Bob, I'll agree 100% with your first assumption (sorry, Marvin), but disagree substantially with the second.  Our justice system is never completely blind because it is administered by human beings and human beings are never completely without bias.  Your illustration (from a later post) about your courtroom experience during what was apparently your hippie period sort of illustrates my point.  I freely admit that I prejudge people based on a variety of factors, and I think others do so as well.  I work hard to overcome this tendency or at least keep it in check, but it's never far below the surface, and it seems to be innate within me. 

The widely varying verdicts handed down from our judicial system would also seem to prove that justice is whatever a judge or jury believes it to be at a given moment, based upon their interpretation of applicable law as filtered through their own prejudicial life experiences.  For instance, a jury composed entirely of KSM's peers would no doubt find that he had done no wrong and set him free, but few others would hail that decision as fair and just.  Our judicial system may be the best available in the world right now, but it's fairness can never be more than relative.

Gibson Brown:

Nick, Dave, etc., I must say I know pandira. I will leave it to pandira to go public or not.

Aha!  The plot thickens!  I love a bona fide mystery, and Pan is quickly developing into one.  I'm thinking of the terrifying Greek god, Pan, and how we get our work "panic" from him.  The only thing about our Pan that strikes terror in me is the fact that he appears to be a threat to my position as the starboard anchor of the panel.  I can move a little bit farther to the right, but not much. 

You now have some capital, Gip.  Since you know Pan's identity, you can use it to blackmail him.  (Why do I assume Pan is a "he?"  I've already prejudged Pan, haven't I?)  No, seriously, Gip, you can threaten to "out" Pan unless he pays you hush money.  Depending on how rich he is and how much he wants to remain anonymous, you could be flying first class to those golf ball driving tournaments!  Think of it, Gip -- You, the Gipster, kicked back in first class, sipping a martini and telling your seatmate about how you know Bagger Vance, and how you can out-drive Tiger Woods.  Give it some thought, Gip.  Opportunities like this don't come our way every day....

Nick Prout:

the Israelis do not pussyfoot around with terrorism. Their country is surrounded by those who wish to see their nation destroyed and therefore can not afford the luxury of opinion polls, political expedience and political correctness in dealing with threats and attacks.

Now there's a topic for discussion!  Israel is a tiny country surrounded by countries and people who hate and despise it.  Its millions of enemies would give their lives, indeed their children's lives, to destroy it -- and yet it stands!  Its neighbors have hurled their armies against it more than once, and terrorist groups work every day with the single-minded purpose of of killing as many  Israelis as possible -- and yet it stands! 

Throughout history, the Israelis have been conquered, killed, and carried away as captives many times -- and yet they stand.  In the past, Israel as a nation has been essentially wiped from the face of the earth, its leaders killed, its infrastructure destroyed, and its few remaining people scattered to the four winds -- and yet it stands today.  Other nations overrun and destroyed by conquerers have disappeared from history, the remaining citizens of these conquered nations disappearing as they die out or are absorbed by their conquerers, but not Israel -- Israel still stands today, many of its people still able to trace their lineage back to the original patriarch, Abraham. 

We could also speak of the actual land of Israel itself, how it tends to languish and turn to dessert when inhabited and controlled by non-Israelis, and how it greens and flourishes and becomes a painful pebble in the shoe of the world whenever the Israelis return to it.  What's so special about Israel?  Why are so few people ambivalent toward the land of Israel?  The country is so small, the people relatively few, and yet the rest of the world is not content to ignore it.  What's so special about Israel?  Why has history not been able to destroy it? 

 

G. Brown quoted; I must say I know pandira. I will leave it to pandira to go public or not.

 Clonnie, I'm going to open myself to attack again and repeat my agreement, not only with you but also Pandira, whomever she may be. As for her photo I'm going to jump to the conclusion that perhaps she, like me, is sufficiently computer enept and haven't been able to master posting mine. Maybe my son's next visit will solve that. As for those of you who don't agree with Clonnie etc. please don't feel bad. I've no doubt you have been right on occasion. And, to Pandira. although I love to read I can't claim to have been an intensive reader of history, just occasionally. But my civil engineering work has taken me to about twenty two countries and I've paid attention to the many diverse attitudes and their sources. I've noted that attitudes and their sources are more important and influence cultures much more than does race.

 

Clonnie Yearout wrote ......

".....you can threaten to "out" Pan unless he pays you hush money.  Depending on how rich he is....."  

Very funny, good sir. I'm afraid my wealth might afford Gip a fine lunch of peanut butter, but no flight to his tournaments. I have no aversion to revealing who I am.....you wouldn't know me, anyway.....but this mystique thing is just a bit entertaining. I have to ask why the anonymous option is even available if it isn't accepted very readily? Amusing to associate me with Pan.....no....only a little research would reveal from whence came my moniker. My only goal is simply to stir the brain cells just a little beyond the norm. It has been my curse and blessing to have no formal education. I hold no degrees. I have little influence on anyone anywhere. I pose no threat to anyone, except to threaten standard views of the world and it's machinations. I am completely self educated, except in that the government schools did help me to learn how to read and do simple math.

Dave Hanson wrote.....

".....Fiction is sometimes presented as fact."

Yes, that's true, and if that fiction becomes mainstream, it becomes "reality", because of the general consensus, and that fiction may be taught in the public schools.....taught to the teachers to perpetuate to their students, and it is my contention that much of what is taught in the government schools, is just that, but only fiction in as much as a good deal of the truth is left out, and by it's ommission, a picture is painted that may not be altogether true. How do we recognize truth? It must be based on information assimilated along with a "gut level"  feeling. Truth is not based on consensus, but lies outside of human recognition. In other words, no matter what you or I think is true, there is a truth that exists beyond our opinions. As far as conspiracy goes, I would like to offer some quotes from people who are in a position to know....I hope you enjoy this small spattering of quotes....Does any of it sound conspiratorial?

"We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries."
David Rockefeller Baden-Baden, Germany 1991

"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as "internationalists" and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."  David Rockefeller

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." Woodrow Wilson

"We will have a world government whether you like it or not. The only question is whether that government will be achieved by conquest or consent." James Warburg (brother of the author of the Federal Reserve Act)  [1896~1969]  Banker, Economist. Statement by the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) member to The Senate Foreign Relations Committee on February 17^th, l950 - as he testified before the US Senate

 "The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the Government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson."
A letter written by FDR to Colonel House, November 21st, l933

"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes."
Benjamin Disraeli, first Prime Minister of England, in a novel he published in 1844 called Coningsby, the New Generation

"Fifty men have run America, and that's a high figure." Joseph Kennedy, father of JFK, in the July 26th, l936 issue of The New York Times.

"The truth of the matter is that you do have those standby provisions, and the statutory emergency plans are there whereby you could, in the name of stopping terrorism, apprehend, invoke the military, and arrest Americans and hold them in detention camps."
U.S. Representative Henry Gonzalez, August 29, 1994

...and this from an well respected history professor, who was also Bill Clinton's mentor at Georgetown U.

"There does exist and has existed for a generation, an international . . . network which operates, to some extent, in the way the radical right believes the Communists act. In fact, this network, which we may identify as the Round Table Groups, has no aversion to cooperating with the Communists, or any other groups and frequently does so. I know of the operations of this network because I have studied it for twenty years and was permitted for two years, in the early 1960s, to examine its papers and secret records. I have no aversion to it or to most of its aims and have, for much of my life, been close to it and to many of its instruments. I have objected, both in the past and recently, to a few of its policies . . . but in general my chief difference of opinion is that it wishes to remain unknown, and I believe its role in history is significant enough to be known."
Professor Carroll Quigley, in his book Tragedy and Hope, 1966.

"The real menace of our republic is this invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy length over city, state and nation. Like the octopus of real life, it operates under cover of a self created screen....At the head of this octopus are the Rockefeller Standard Oil interests and a small group of powerful banking houses generally referred to as international bankers. The little coterie of powerful international bankers virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes. They practically control both political parties."
New York City Mayor John F. Hylan, 1922

"Let me control a peoples currency and I care not who makes their laws."
Meyer Nathaniel Rothschild in a speech to a gathering of world bankers February 12, 1912. The following year, the USA subscribed to the 'services' of the newly incorporated Federal Reserve, headed by Mr. Rothschild.

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."
Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief

"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."
- David Rockefeller

"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government."
Dr. Henry Kissinger, Bilderberger Conference, Evians, France, 1991

As for my secret identity..... my name is Joey Zamorski. You wouldn't know me, unless you were an avid listener of the Craig Wright Show, which ran on WFIR several years ago. I'm just your average blue collar worker with a passion for history and an insatiable appetite for the truth, and I claim it as a blessing to have educated myself outside the public schools, because I believe that the role of our modern educational system is not to truly educate individuals toward critical thinking, but instead, to vocationally train a workforce for the coming New World Order.

Did you ever wonder why there is an Egyptian pyramid on the back of our one dollar bill? Why an all seeing eye? I'm sure there is an inocuous explanation. I have my own understanding. I do believe that there is a grand conspiracy that underlies most  major current events. If you are right, then we can all have a good laugh at my expense. If I am right, then you may be making the biggest mistake of your life, and our collective lives, by not investigating my assertions.